Liminal Living

"Have you ever wondered how much of what you believe to be true is actually influenced by the quirks of your own mind? In this solo episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we delve into the fascinating realm of cognitive biases and their impact on our perception of reality. We use Brian McLaren’s list of 13 cognitive biases that cloud our judgment, revealing how they shape our understanding of truth and certainty. Through a philosophical lens, we examine the notion of absolute certainty, suggesting that acknowledging the presence of biases allows us to embrace uncertainty with an open hand.The path to truth lies not in clinging to a rigid sense of certainty, but rather in maintaining a humble acknowledgment of our own limitations. Truth can be best grasped in a mindset where being 95% sure of something allows room for the remaining 5% of uncertainty. Embracing this openness enables us to navigate the complexities of truth with greater clarity and humility. Ultimately, we hope this is a compelling invitation fo

"Have you ever always hated the doctrine of eternal conscious torment but felt like it was too central to the faith to discard? Chad is the guy to talk to. Today we deconstruct the theology of ECT, discuss its origins, its evolution, and its future home in the proverbial lake of fire. We also discuss open and relational theology, evangelicalism, liminality, contemplation, and more views of the afterlife. It was an invigorating conversation that let me see that my academic mind can still come out and play every once in a while.Chad Bahl is a DThM candidate at Northwind Theological Seminary, studying under Dr Thomas Jay Oord, where he specializes in the study of Open and Relational Theology. He also has hosted a podcast series: Deconstructing Hell. And is the author of God Unbound: An Evangelical Reconsiders Tradition in Search of Truth, author/editor of Deconstructing Hell: Open and Relational Responses to the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, and author of the upcoming Mornings with Schleirmacher.You can

"Have you ever wondered how one finds their voice in a world that often seeks to silence them? Today, we're diving deep into that question with author and advocate-minister Ally Henny, as we explore her journey of resilience, faith, and empowerment. Ally is the brilliant mind behind "I Won't Shut Up: Finding Your Voice When the World Tries to Silence You," a wonderful work that delves into the complexities of navigating societal pressures and finding one's voice amidst adversity. As the Vice President of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective, Ally is dedicated to empowering Black Christians toward liberation from racism, offering profound insights into the intersection of faith and social justice. Throughout our conversation, we'll journey through Ally's experiences and perspectives, exploring the differences of black and white Christian culture in this country, the effect it has on politics, economics, society, and religion. Also, Ally offers invaluable insights into the tensions of Black freedom and the

Have you ever been made the “prayer request” of a community because your story didn’t match the triumphal testimony narrative? Justin grew up in the Southern Baptist Church as a conservative labeled by his high school peers as “God boy.” He was handing out tracts, evangelizing, and really good at obeying purity culture rules when it came to women. Then he realized that he was gay. He went on a long journey of wrestling with faith and identity, and we talk about his story today. For over 25 years, Justin Lee has been a leading voice in navigating contentious issues with depth and empathy. As the author of "Talking Across the Divide: How to Communicate with People You Disagree With—and Maybe Even Change the World," his work has been adopted as a college textbook, guiding students through areas of disagreement. Beginning his journey in the 90s as a spokesperson for Bridges Across the Divide, Justin later founded a nonprofit dedicated to fostering dialogue within Christian communities on LGBTQ issues, g

Has your faith community become a breeding ground for spiritual abuse? Today I talk to Amy Fritz, host of the podcast "Untangled Faith," and we delve into the complexities of spiritual abuse within faith communities, drawing from her personal experiences and her husband's encounters while working for Dave Ramasey. Through occasional articles, Amy shares insights on faith, parenting, and simplifying life while fostering meaningful connections. In this insightful interview, she discusses pivotal moments in her faith journey, theological perspectives that reshaped her thinking, and sustaining practices that offer hope. Touching on topics like reorganized religion, abusive tactics, and the impact of the Evangelical industrial complex, Amy explores where the church could head in the next decade with honesty, humility, and openness. We also talk about failing religious leadership, and the transformation needed to address systemic issues within the church. You can find Amy’s blog here: http://amyfritzwrite

Have you struggled with finding community and belonging after deconstruction? Many do, because you are in a liminal space of development, unsure of who you are, what you believe, and therefore, who your people are. Matthew Paul Turner, no relation to Tina, has been on a journey of belonging that he illustrates with a new Children’s book, You Will Always Belong. Matthew takes deep spiritual truths around the concept of identity and makes them accessible to children, and therefore, that inner child in you that desires to belong. The starting place: learn to belong to yourself so that you know what people it is safe to belong to. Matthew Paul Turner has traveled the globe as a photographer, journalist and humanitarian documentarian. But he has truly made his mark in the world of children's literature. The #1 New York Times bestselling author brings an unmatched gift for rhyme and powerful storytelling to his inspiring books for young readers. Whether documenting the struggles of impoverished communities through

Have you ever felt like your faith tradition put you in a box, stifling your curiosity and ability to ask real questions? If so, then you'll want to hear this interview with author Trey Ferguson. Trey's book "Theologizin Bigger" takes a refreshing look at how to "theologize" - to wrestle with faith and theology in an embodied way that embraces mystery, questioning, and diverse perspectives. In our conversation, Trey unpacked how the Western evangelical desire for a uniform, objective understanding of faith has alienated and dismissed voices from the margins. He made an insightful distinction between merely studying theology as an expert versus the active, effortful work of "theologizing." Trey also painted a powerful picture of Pentecost as the antidote to the Tower of Babel - where the miracle was the ability for truth to be expressed in many languages, not conformity to one standard. With wisdom and lyrical profundity, he issued a call to hold a non-polarized space that allows

What happens when you get two deconstructed pastors in a zoom conversation together? A talk that spans from Thomas Merton’s mysticism, faith evolution, open and relational theology, Christian nationalism, and beer. Today’s conversation is the sharing of two deconstruction journeys and the evolution of faith that took place. Today we talk with Josh Patterson, who runs the (Re)thinking Faith Podcast which explores Christianity and spirituality from a progressive, deconstructed perspective. Coming from an evangelical background, Patterson interviews guests from various faiths and backgrounds to have honest dialogues about questioning long-held Christian beliefs, the intersection of faith and reason, finding meaning outside rigid doctrines, and reconstructing one's spiritual worldview with integrity. Through storytelling, Bible analysis, and respectful discourse, the podcast aims to create a space for those rethinking, doubting, or evolving their faith to engage with the doubts, struggles, and spiritual evolution

S3 E9: Dr Andrew M Davis: Philosophy, Theology, and Alien Life If our theological framework was developed in medieval times under an earth centric understanding of the universe, how does that change with the discovery of near infinite galaxies out there? What does a Christian faith look like that is not earth centric or human centric? What does that do to the doctrine of the incarnation; God becoming human? If intelligent alien life made itself known to us, what theologies would go out the window? Today we talk with Dr Andrew M. Davis, American process philosopher, theologian, and scholar of cosmological wonder. He is program director for the Center for Process Studies where he researches, writes, teaches, and organizes conferences on various aspects of process-relational thought. He has written many academic articles and books, and we talk about his book Metaphysics of Exo-Life: Toward a Constructive Whiteheadian Cosmotheology. But don’t let that title scare you away. This is one of the most fun conversation

S3 E8: Dr David Fitch: Church on the Wrong Side of Power What happens when the church uses the power of the world to accomplish the purposes of God? You get the Church on the wrong side of power, with a reckoning that needs to take place. Today I talk with David Fitch about his new book, Reckoning with Power, Why the Church Fails when it’s on the Wrong Side of Power. In this work he describes three kinds of power the world uses, and contrasts it with the kind of power that God has. Indeed this is a reckoning of power moment, and Fitch’s book is a wonderful guide. Trigger warning, while our conversation spans theology, politics, culture, and ecclesiology, and made my brain explode a few times, we do talk about modern political figures and events openly. Fitch has been a pastor for 30 years, planting 9 churches, he is the Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary Chicago, IL where he runs a few of their doctoral and masters programs. He is the author of many books, a writer for Missio Alliance, a blogg

How can you identify the narratives used by high control pastors to maintain control? In this episode of the Liminal Living podcast, we talk with Jason and Lori Adams-Brown. With extensive backgrounds in intercultural studies, trauma care, and missionary work, Jason and Lori offer invaluable insights into the insidious nature of spiritual abuse within religious communities. Drawing from their own experiences of navigating abusive environments, they shed light on the subtle ways in which abusive leaders manipulate narratives to maintain power and control. Through candid conversation, Jason and Lori provide interpretations of common phrases used to gaslight congregants and shield abusive pastors from accountability. From "We are praying for the pastor" to "We need to change our judgemental thinking," they provide a Google translate version of the gaslighting Christian language, enabling listeners to recognize the reality behind the rhetoric. Moreover, the episode explores the dynamics of fai

9 years ago, Jonathan watched from his picture window as a law enforcement officer drove up his driveway to give him the devastating news that his 20 year old daughter was killed in a car crash. His family has been in the Liminal space of grief ever since. He wrote a book about his grief entitled, indigo, the color of grief. This work guides our discussion today. And yes, I cried. Dr Jonathan Foster is a writer at heart. He writes books, podcasts, and blog posts. He is an author of 5 books, and he helps other authors make books at SacraSagePress. He is involved with the open table network, which provides ordination credentials to progressive religious leaders. And he loves hiking in the Rocky Mountains. You can find Jonathan’s podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jonathan-foster/id1479338607 You can find Jonathan’s work here: www.jonathanfosteronline.com Please go buy Jonathan’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/indigo-color-Jonathan-J-Foster/dp/1737664968 Time Stamps for the episode: 03:30 Thi

Has deconstruction left you feeling isolated, anxious, and alone? Dr Tim Carson and I talk about the liminality of deconstruction, and how we are in a large collective “we” space of deconstruction, and the desperate need for liminal guides today. We also talk about the neurology of liminality and why it is so transformative. Timothy Carson is the curator of The Liminality Project. And has done Doctoral research and dissertation on Liminality. Tim is also the author of Liminal Reality and Transformational Power (2016), editor of the anthology Neither Here nor There: The Many Voices of Liminality (2019), co-author of Crossing Thresholds: A Practical Theology of Liminality (2021), editor of the anthology The Liminal Loop: Astonishing Stories of Discovery and Hope (2022), and editor of Leaning into the Liminal: A Guide for Counselors and Companions (2024). Tim continues to write, edit, blog, facilitate groups and seminars focused on liminality, and work with people making life’s great passages. Tim teaches a vari

I get personal today on why I left the Evangelical stream of the faith, but also on why I am still a Christian and a pastor. We explore, historically, what an evangelical is, how fundamentalism took over and partnered itself as a political machine. So I share some of my points of departure, and then go on to share some points of consent, on why I am still in the Christian faith. I also share my vision for something different as a pastor and what I am up to in my neigborhood. Time Stamps for this episode: Time Stamps for the episode: 03:09 A Liminal Age 06:38 4 Characteristics of Evangelicals: 1. Biblicism 11:50 4 Characteristics: 2. Crucicentrism 3. Conversionism 16:55 4 Characteristics: 4. Activism 19:42 The Fundamentalist Shift 24:48 5 Pillars of Fundies: Inerrancy, Virgin Birth, Atonement 29:53 5 Pillars of Fundies: Bodily Resurrection, Historic Miracles 35:26 The Conservative Resurgence of the SBC 40:04 Points of Departure: Inerrancy = authoritarianism 45:32 Points of Departure: Evangelism = Theological C

When a pastor has experienced both the beauty of a spiritual community, and the hurt and abuse of demands for excellence for nearly 26 years, it is a confusing place to occupy. Jason Raitz and I have been friends for nearly 30 years, walking with each other through the highs and lows of our lives. We have landed in very different places; geographically, socially, theologically. But our lives continue to intersect and enrich each other. Today we have an honest conversation about the liminal space he is in, wondering what role the church plays in his life, and the world. We leave it unresolved, because that is liminal space, and that is reality for most of life. You can connect with Jason’s work here: https://www.speakwithpeople.com/ Time Stamps for the episode: 03:10 30 years of friendship 06:42 My “conversion” story, and Jason’s role in it 11:18 A decision to be a pastor, at age 20 15:34 First call to a church, at 20 years old 20:53 Crashing the Ego in a field 25:55 The Pressure of Excellence 30:48 Gen

Dr Emily Smith is a PhD epidemiologist whose work has been featured in TIME Magazine, Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and NPR. Dr Emily’s profession as an epidemiologist was a natural way to express her Christian values for loving her neighbor. So when the pandemic hit, she was in a unique spot to rally the church together to love their neighbor as the Good Samaritan taught, or so she thought. Expressing her expertise online made her a target, even from her own church members, whom her husband was pastor of. After threats to her children were made, she broke down with debilitating and chronic migraines for 15 months, spending 6 months in bed. When she was well enough, she wrote of her experiences in a published book entitled, The Science of the Good Samaritan. We have an honest conversation about her journey through this time, and her book. You can connect with Dr Emily’s work at https://emilysmith.substack.com You can purchase her book at https://rb.gy/94v8jh Time Stamps for the episode: 03:08 Scie

S3 E1: Alana Levandoski: The Longing is Home Welcome to season 3 of the Liminal Living podcast. And today we talk with spiritual teacher, artist, and musician, Alana Levandoski. Alana has gone on pilgrimages and come back to alchemize her experiences into music. Her perspective is large and her wisdom is deep. On today’s episode we talk about the importance of longing within the human soul, and how we embody that longing. Our conversation is broad and deep so buckle up. You can connect with Alana’s work at alanalevandoski.com Time Stamps for the episode: 02:34 Pilgrimage and place 07:21 Finding and reclaiming your roots 12:41 Find your people 18:45 Pilgrimage through time in the place you stand 23:13 Healing your soul is changing the world 28:01 Developing a “Christ Consciousness” 33:18 You can’t think your way out of trauma 37:38 A passing age gives birth to another 41:19 Feminine wisdom birth’s Christ into the world 46:49 Escaping the cerebral age without destroying it 49:47 Theologian as Artist

We made it to the end of the year! So to celebrate I revisited our top three most downloaded episodes*, as well as read some of your comments on your favorite moments. Thank you for listening and contributing to the conversation. Here is to a great season 3! *after recording this, Dr Chris Green’s episode released and became the #1 downloaded episode of the season. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:00 Intro 07:55 #3 most downloaded: Kenneth Tanner 14:40 #2 most downloaded: Rob Bell 21:25 #1 most downloaded: Matt Tebbe 27:46 Joe: Don’t Spiritualize Your Problems 35:20 Terri: Consolation and Desolation 41:43 Collette: Universal Redemption 46:27 Abigail: Kate’s Courage 52:14 Scott: Liminal seasons of new life 58:03 Dave: “The Bible Says” 1:03:51 Rosie: Frames and Reality 1:10:35 David: Rob Bell’s laugh 1:14:13 Conclusion All Music for this episode is provided by Axeltree https://liminalliving.simplecast.com/ 

S2 E35: Dr Chris Green: Dead Answers vs Living Questions Too often theology becomes more about trophy hunting for the “right” answers in order to impress and display. But trophies are dead things. Dr. Chris Green and I talk about the role of art and imagination in the theological process of finding living questions, which are small answers that lead to more questions and explorations. Dr. Chris Green is Professor of Public Theology at Southeastern University, the Bishop of the Diocese of St Anthony, and Director for St Anthony Institute of Theology, Philosophy, and Liturgics. He is the author and editor of a number of books, articles, and reviews, including most recently All Things Beautiful: An Aesthetic Christology. He and his wife, Julie, live in Cleveland, TN with their sons Clive and Emery, and their Weimaraner, Auggie. Their oldest, Zoë, is currently attending the University of Oklahoma. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:35 Intro 04:19 Theology and Art 08:25 Where does art come from? 13:46 What does a

God became a human being, the incarnation, a central dogma of the Christian tradition that I was not taught in my Evangelical tradition. Well it was a messy necessity for Chgrist to be human so that the “real” dogma of substitutionary atonement was valid. Father Kenny and I dive into this concept in all its beauty today on what it means that God became human. Father Kenneth Tanner is pastor of Holy Redeemer in Rochester Hills Michigan, writer at Sojourners, Patheos, and Substack, author of an upcoming book called Vulnerable God: Retrieving the Wonder of God-With-Us in Our Humanity, teacher, and wonderful human being. Time Stamps for the episode: 00:31 Intro 03:40 Handing me mystery instead of answers 08:30 Mystery leads to awe and wonder 12:40 A long painful call into ministry 17:48 Grief and anxiety in ministry 22:05 The soil Father Kenny grew out of 25:41 Two responses to the Challenger tragedy 29:42 The expansive idea of God becoming human 34:39 Incarnation IS revelation of God 40:09 God’s humility in Chri